In Matthew 5:30 Jesus says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna." In this passage, Jesus has first called to recollection the law "you shall not commit adultery." Notice that he doesn't say--that's the old law don't worry about it, no..he raises the bar, doesn't he. Pluck out your eye, cut off your hand. Why? If I'm saved by faith alone and my works don't matter, I can keep my hand....
NO, Jesus plainly says it will land you in hell with the rest of your body. In Matt 12:50 Jesus says, "Whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother." Again, he is speaking of "doing" the will of the Father.
Ralph Martin, in The Fulfillment of All Desire, states that "Saving faith is a faith that issues in works. Saving faith is not just an inner act or disposition but the expression of that inner act or disposition in deeds. The final judgment is based not just on our interior faith alone but on actions we take in our lives by the grace of God, actions that flow from that faith."
Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."
Matt 16:26-27 "What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct."
Matt 25:41-46 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me. Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer to them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
This does not, to me sound like Jesus is teaching us to have faith and continue to live how we choose. What this sounds like is that Jesus is plainly telling us that we will be judged according to our works, and that we can be sent away from Him if we have not lived according to His law. Now, St. Paul talks a LOT about "the law." It is important to understand that Paul is often speaking of the Jewish Mosaic Law that is the customs and traditions of the people. There were over 600 different laws that were written to be followed. Paul often speaks against the necessity of this law, especially for the Gentiles, because they aren't Jews! But, Paul does not say that we are not held accountable for our works. Paul actually says, quite plainly in Romans that those who persevere in good works will be saved.
Romans 2:5-11 "By your stubborn and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgement of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."
The Council of Trent, stated, with regards to perseverance...
On the gift of Perseverance.
So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God's help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God's grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.
Notice that the council refers to perseverance as a gift! It is by God's grace that we can persevere through good works. The Church does not, did not, and will not claim that it is by our merit that we can do good works. It is a gift of God's grace. I have often heard, in the sola fide argument, that the Catholic Church teaches that people can, through their own works, be saved. I have also heard it said the in the Catholic Church it is all about "what they do." This is not true. This is not the teachings of the Church. What the church actually teaches is this:
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992) Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.
(1996) Our justification comes from the Grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to His call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
(2008) The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of His grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God,then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
Okay, I think that enough to chew on for today. I find it fascinating that there are so many against the Catholic Church over this very argument, yet, most don't know what the church is actually teaching. In reading Faith Alone, by Sproul, I grew very discouraged in that he uses little to no scripture to back up his doctrinal argument. He often quotes Luther or Calvin as if their words are gospel. He argues the catechism and the Council of Trent with quotes of response from Luther and Calvin, but there is no scriptural argument. The only thing I have found, is that maybe he doesn't use scripture to back up the sola fide argument because it isn't there. The only place I have found in scripture where the words "faith alone" are used is in James where it says "we are not justified by faith alone."
23 comments:
I want to add two things...#1. Sorry for the mispellings and gramatical errors. I am still getting used to the keyboard on this new computer, and I don't proofread my own stuff very well.
#2. We serve an awesome and wonderful God, who sent His only son, Jesus, to die for us and absolve our sins. He left us with beautiful words in His scripture, and beautiful traditions of faith. (Both big and little T traditions...lol). I am thankful to have the grace to have faith, and I am personally prayerful that I will, through my faith, work to His glory.
Regarding the Justified Part 2: Ok so you probably said this already but this is just me typing it out make sure. Haha! In a sense we are saved just by our faith, however, our works and actions should reflect our faith without us having to say what we believe in. Realistically our works do matter. I mean, how are we supposed to show people the love of our faith if that love doesn’t shine through us first??
Yes and no. Our works do matter, yes. Works and actions WILL reflect true faith if there is faith present. No options.
I don't believe that we are saved "just by" our faith. Jesus repeatedly tell us to do things. Even the demons believe he is the son of God. Ultimately, we will be judged, and our actions will be taken into account and we will be held accountable for them. The thief on the cross was saved by his faith, because Jesus judged his heart to be truly repentant. Not only that, but in his action of admonishing the other criminal, he acted on his faith.
Also, yes, we should always show our faith whether or not you proclaim it with words.
St. Francis said, "You should evangalize all of the time and sometimes use words." Meaning that it is through our living example of Christ as Christians, others will be drawn to us and to the Body of Christ.
Well I finally had a chance to read Aptil's blog and all the comments. First off I'd like to say this is great. Thanks to everyone who is participating even if you are just reading along. I'll go back and post comments on other things that have been said but anyway I'm new to the blog thing. God's love to all.
I see from reading the comments so far we are already in a discussion of justification by faith alone and faith verses works and imputed and infused righteousness and so on and so forth. A protestant verses catholic view discussion in other words. Thats good. We need to have these discussions or else how will we know what anybody else believes if we refuse to talk about our own faith with others? We have to keep in mind this is huge stuff. Very, very important stuff we are talking about. Having said that we should aproach it with love. It's not a battle to try and drag anyone down. I don't think anyone is trying to do that, but it can get heated quickly beause the topics are of such great importance.
For me I like to sum up what the Catholic Church teaches about saving faith like this: When you die and you have to stand before God, if He says "My child, why should I let you into heaven?" You have only one possible answer to give Him. "Because Father, your son Jesus died for me, for the forgiveness of my sins, it is through your son Jesus that I can enter heaven." Then God asks "You love Jesus then my child?" And the answer has to be "Yes." Ok so far we should all be on the same page here as Christians. Protestants agree with what I have said above from what I understand. Here is the difference. In the Catholic view the next thing God will say is "Prove it." I'm saying this to show to those who may be unfamiliar with the whole faith versus works thing some kind of basic example of how it plays out. Like I said its a simplification but one that I believe shows the difference well and to some extent is what alot of the missunderstandings, missinterpritations, false teachings build themselves upon. It is up to us to decide of course what is true or false...or is it? No, its really not up to us at all. Not for any of us. Thats the thing about modernism and the religion of Me that is so rampant. There is but one Truth, and that is why, when we feel the truth has been revealed to us, we stand so firm upon it. That's why, when you aren't sure if you have the truth or not, you feel so unsteady, you can feel the ground shifting beneath you. Everything else that is not the truth, is a foundation of sand. So the prayer that brought me back to God is the one I suggest for all of us reading this right now. "Father, show me the truth. At any cost Lord, lead me to the truth for you are the way the truth and the light. Whatever path you lead me on I will follow in your truth!"
Okay, this is the second time I've tried to respond and I keep getting an error message. I'm sorry if that is happening to other people, too. Sometimes techology stinks.
Anway, in response to Bryan's response...
I like the explanation, and, while it seems harsh (especially if you believe in faith alone or 'once saved always saved') but I believe it is pretty right on. Now, don't mistake what I'm saying...I don't really believe that God is going to stand there and say "prove it." What I believe is what Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." When we proclaim a love of Christ...well, we should be doing something about it. Like Stephanie says, you have true faith, you are "compelled" to works.
God won't tell us to prove it, because he already knows. He knows our heart..he knows our love, our guilt, our triumphs, our failings, he doesn't have to hear it from us. The reality is, he will show us what we have done. We will be faced with our life story, through the eyes of the savior. That is scary. But, with that in mind, the only way we can even see that and experience that moment is through His grace!!
There is never a moment, no matter how dark, no matter how sinful we are, no matter how horribly we have lived that He won't answer our call. When we are there, on our knees in desperation or in total love and surrender, and we call out Abba, Father, He is right there. He answers EVERY time. That is the hope, that is the beauty. We are dirt bags, we are NEVER deserving. It is ONLY through HIS grace and through the work of HIS righteousness that we can be made righteous. We obey, we accept, we respond and allow Him to work in us so that we can work for His glory.
So I need to apologize up front. My comment is too long for the comment box so I will have to split it up into smaller comments. I apologize again!
@Randi I totally agree with your comment! @Brian I agree with you on one of your points you couldn’t have said that any better. Your right these are things that we must discuss and have dialogue about. @April I’m glad I finally got to read this post I kinda felt like I was behind. These posts actually remind me of a debate I watched a couple months back on youtube between Robert Sungenis (RC Apologist) and Dr. James White (Ref. Apologist) It’s by far one of the best debates I’ve watched on Justification and they were nice and respectful to each other. They hit on all the same points that have been discussed in these posts but they do it with more clarity than us. I would encourage you guys to watch it and any other debates like these if you have time but I warn you it is long but well worth it. Here’s the link. It starts 3:00 into the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPlkyEMoFvw&feature=bf_prev&list=PLFFF0737233BEF77F&index=25
With that said I’d like to comment on some points that you’ve made.
You said, “There is no argument about grace alone. It is by God's grace alone that we have faith. Also, there is no argument that we must have faith in order to achieve salvation/justification. There is nothing we can do apart from faith to achieve salvation. The argument is whether it is faith ALONE that gives us our ticket to heaven. James stated very clearly that "it is NOT by faith alone."
Hmmm this sounds like a self refuting statement. If you say that, “ There is nothing we can do apart from faith to achieve salvation” and then quote James 2:24 well then now you have a self refuting statement. But then the other problem I see right away is that James 2:24 does not fit in this context at all. Again I think If we read James 2 in it’s proper context we’ll see that he is addressing people who have dead faith ,this is why he uses the argument in verses 19-20
“19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless.” Notice that the demons believe in Christ in that, who he is but demons DO NOT HAVE SAVING REPENTING FAITH! Just think about this for a sec demons don’t put there trust in Christ! Notice how James is comparing the faith of those who merely claim to have faith with the unrepented faith of demons. So if your talking about a fake intellectual faith in the previous sentence when you say, “The argument is whether it is faith ALONE” than yes I would agree. But I believe you are talking about real genuine saving faith when you said that. Again James is not referring to that type of faith at all. I know I already commented on this a couple of times already but I think there needs to be a better exegesis of this text. Again the faith that James is referring to is an intellectual faith which is not true saving faith it’s a false belief not a TRUE REPENTED faith that turns from sin and walks toward righteousness and good works. So I think using that verse or quote by itself without interpreting it in it’s proper context and audience that is being addressed can lead to misinterpretation and building and that cannot stand on it’s own! Sorry if it seemed like I was going on and on but there seems to be a lot of misuse in my opinion of this text.....cont
In your quoting of Matthew 5:30 I agree with you that Jesus calls us to follow the law which every Christian will if they’ve truly repented because it exposes our sin and always points us to Christ and to follow Christ (1Pet. 1:15 “ But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”) Yes Jesus commands us to follow the law and obey it but if you try to build a case to say this is how we will be justified in the end well then your going to have to ignore and disregard every other verse where Jesus Justifies sinners by faith and not works and your going to have to ignore all the verses where Jesus rebukes the pharisees who put there faith in the law. Dr. James White actually addresses this very issue on persevering to the end in the debate I mentioned at the beginning of my comment. It starts 3:40 minutes in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6N3BJ_jsEs&feature=BFa&list=PLFFF0737233BEF77F&index=44
But what I see further on and thru out the whole two parts of these posts on Justification is a miscaractersation Sola Fide. I’ll quote Theologian and Professor of Westminster Seminary Dr. Michael Horton. He says,
“we see this recurring theme that paints the doctrine of Faith Alone as one that is void of any works/fruit or the desire there of or void of any desire to as the Apostle Paul said “to workout our salvation with fear and trembling”. This thought is so far from the truth!
In the Scriptures and throughout church history, proponents of this view have been charged with opening the door to loose-living. It was the Apostle Paul himself who realized the full impact of this Gospel when, after announcing that 'where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more,' he anticipated his readers' shock: 'What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?' His answer, and ours, is 'Heaven forbid! How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it.' We do not deny regeneration and sanctification, we simply do not regard this as the basis for our acceptance before a holy God. While the Apostle Paul knew that the Gospel he preached would raise the objection that this would lead to loose-living, Rome has never had to worry about this accusation concerning the gospel she proclaims.
Why would we 'hunger and thirst after righteousness' if it is already imputed?, one may ask. It is precisely because it is already imputed that we hunger and thirst after obedience to God in gratitude for our redemption. It is similar to asking why a foster child would want to obey if he is already adopted. We are sons, not slaves; we serve God out of gratitude, not fear of judgment or hope of rewards. Tell me that I have to sufficiently love God and my neighbor before I can enjoy God's favor and the last thing I will want to do is love God. What I must hear if I am to end my war against God is that he forgives the wicked. He makes sons out of his enemies. He declares those to be righteous who in themselves cannot love God and their neighbor. Then I will lay down my weapons and accept the truce....cont
In Protestant theology, 'salvation' is a broad word, encompassing not only justification, but election, atonement, regeneration, sanctification, adoption, and final glorification. In these debates, a recurring error on the Roman Catholic side is to assume a false antithesis: Either the Bible teaches that justification and sanctification are identical or the Bible teaches that there is no such thing as sanctification. This debate, therefore, is not over the question of whether God renews us and initiates a process of gradual growth in holiness throughout the course of our lives. 'We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone,' Luther stated, and this recurring affirmation of the new birth and sanctification as necessarily linked to justification leads one to wonder how the caricatures continue to be perpetuated without foundation. For instance, in the magazine published by Catholic Answers, This Rock, Leslie Rumble (April, 1993) makes the astounding claim concerning Luther that the German Reformer denied that a change takes place in the person who is justified. 'He remains exactly as he was before' and the believer is never transformed. This demonstrates a remarkable lack of familiarity with the Protestant position. We affirm conversion and the life-long process of growing in sanctifying grace.
This is why we do not find a problem with James, although Roman Catholics find great problems with the rest of Scripture on this subject. For Paul, speaking to new converts who have been steeped in legalism and paganism, the content of the Gospel is uppermost. For James, addressing believers who gloried in what they called 'faith,' but did not seem to think that works were a necessary consequence of saving faith, justification was a matter of making your claim to being justified stand up in a court of law. For Paul, the court of law is God's and it is heavenly; for James, it is man's and it is earthly. For Paul, the fact of justification is in view; for James, the proof of justification is the concern. Therefore, when James declares that faith is dead if it is alone, how could one object? Luther himself said that we were justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. This is James' point: Anything that you call faith that does not love or serve is not really justifying faith, but is 'dead.' Of course, this faith-- 'dead' faith, cannot save anybody. Only living, active, working faith is the genuine article. However, it is not the fruit of faith that justifies. It does not justify in acting, working, loving, or serving, but in believing and receiving Christ's gift of righteousness. The faith that Paul described is not the faith the James sees in those antinomians who thought that faith was nothing more than an assent to certain facts.
But is this doctrine fundamental to our faith? Isn't it simply a matter of fine-tuning things? In our day zeal is more important than knowledge. As long as people 'love the Lord' and seek to live the Christian life, such doctrinal debates as these can only serve to distract us from our common mission in the world. And yet, Paul tells us that his fellow-Israelites were zealous indeed. 'For I can bear witness of them that they have a great zeal for God, but it is not according to knowledge.' Knowledge of certain things is essential for salvation, and the particular piece of knowledge Paul has in mind is the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone: 'Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not accept God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes' (Rom. 10:1-4).
Hey, Torrie!!!!
Okay, so yeah, I can see where, with your viewpoint, that I would be issuing a refuting statement, but if you hang in there with me...lol...I will explain how it isn't. Okay, faith is the foundation of justification. I can't have meritorious works that are God's will living out through me, if I don't have faith in Christ as my Lord. I'm not sure, but it seems to me like, by some of your responses, that you feel that Catholics believe we can be justified without saving faith. We don't. We all agree that we must have faith, and that faith is the foundation. The disagreement is that I can have faith and do nothing else and I'm "saved."
Quoting you here: "Again the faith that James is referring to is an intellectual faith which is not true saving faith it’s a false belief not a TRUE REPENTED faith that turns from sin and walks toward righteousness and good works"
Okay, a faith that walks toward righteousness and good works...I hate to say this to you, Torrie, but that is an awesome Catholic statement.
Also, I am not disagreeing that James is addressing people with dead faith. That's my whole point. How does he know their faith is dead? Because they have no works, no fruit.
Which, reading further into your posts, you express as well with Luther's "faith alone but not by faith that is alone."
I don't misunderstand the Protestant view. Don't forget, I was one until four years ago, and my father is a retired Protestant minister. I've read, recently, R.C. Sproul's book Faith Alone. I know exactly what the doctrine is, and I disagree. I know that you can quote scripture based on interpretation, and I can quote scripture based on apostolic tradition and apostolic teaching/interpretation and we will never agree.
I've watched debates, I've read books from both sides. To steal from David Anders, who is a convert from Calvinism to Catholicism, "I became Catholic, not necessarily because of what I found wrong with Protestantism, but because of what I found right with Catholicism."
His story, and his findings/arguments, etc. are amazing as well. If anyone is interested his website is calvin2catholic.com
Ok. I everybody. I have wanted to post for a long time on all of this. I felt inadequate because I don't have the scriptural background that most everyone else has. I don't know Bible stories, nor can I quote scripture to suit me needs in a debate (nor in what this felt like earlier, an arguement). And I can't quote ot cite church fathers on command.
Let me start by saying this.....
I am a new Christian. Brand new. Like an infant that is vulnerable and small. I am learning a lot of new things all at once. The ONLY thing I have to go on is God's grace that he has given me and the love that His son and my Mother Mary have poured into me.
Faith alone. Nope. Its not by faith alone. I didn't have faith. Not one bit. I was pagan. And not just a little. Full on hardcore pagan. I started practicing at 15. My conversion happened 2 years ago at 33. Not by faith. But by GOD. And the countless hours of those that were constantly praying for me. So right there, I wasn't saved by faith alone.
Now I am learning. Reading. Praying. And going to mass. Again, not by faith alone. I am actively persuing my faith! I have changed how I look at people and how I treat them. My faith in God and the love of his Son have changed my heart to do this. This could be seen as works. That is works of faith.
I am very strong in my faith. That in its self makes me do works of faith. See the point? See how it comes together? That's the big picture. That's what Jesus wants for us to do. Live your faith. That's where your works come from. Not intentionally going out and saying, 'well today I have to do a work of faith'.
Digest that for a while. And see what I mean.
And for the record, @Torrie, I would appreciate that when you feel led to say that Catholics are wrong or mistaken by doing or saying or feeling something, try to reword it. Until you know all the catholics of the world and you know their heart intimately, you can't make blanket statements like that. You don't know the teachings of the church. You aren't catholic. And if you aren't sure, ask a catholic in a non acusatory way and we'll dialog. I do that with protestants. Protestants are what pushed me away from God. And catholics are what made me come home to God. So right there that should be enough to put down your sword and embrace your fellow Christians. We are christian too. Sometimes that's forgotten and that makes me sad. Our faith is rich and colorful and joyful. I am proud to be catholic. As I'm sure you are proud to be protestant. Embrace a catholic. That can be seen as works of faith.
In Christ's love!
Stephanie
Stephanie...please don't ever think you have to have "theology" or a huge ability to quote scripture. So many things are revealed to us through the Holy Spirit, and we should not be afraid to voice those things.
Thank you so much for sharing yourself and your heart with us. Conversion stories and testamonies are among the most intimate things we can share of our faith. You inspire me, thank you.
In my last post I meant to say that 'I used to blanket statement protestants'. Not that I do, sorry. I didn't proof read.
And you are most welcome to hear my story. One day I will divulge more of it but for now that's all that needs to be known. I wanted to share the grace of faith and how works should just come naturally. Im not saved yet. Im on the road, but not yet. I'll be saved when I am standing in front of my Creator and I live forever in his presence in the kingdom of heaven.
Also i'd like to add that when protestants or other faiths quote or cite what catholics do or don't do, they are speaking what they have been taught or read in books (usually written by anti-catholics). Not what they personally know of our faith. It hurts my heart that they take that at fact and not try to find out for themselves. Its easy to quote written texts. I just pray that in the future more protestants ask before going on what someone else said. Make a friend! Ask a catholic!
"This is why we do not find a problem with James, although Roman Catholics find great problems with the rest of Scripture on this subject"
Wow...that is a BOLD statement, Torrie. I wasn't even going to address this issue further, but, in the light of making "valid arguments" and all, I think I have to.
We don't find problems AT ALL with scripture on this subject. The only "problem" you might find is that you, personally, don't agree with the Church's teachings on the scriptures. Again,as you said, don't make blanket statements or generalizations.
You claim to be discussing and presenting your facts with love, but I don't feel that. What I feel is that you are angry. I think you are defensive and hostile and it is clear in your language. I am not trying to prove anything. I'm discussing two views on a doctrine,both views I have both poetic and scriptural knowledge of. I'm not claiming in pride to be some awesome knowledgable theologian that has all the arguments down to a science. What I'm trying to do here, is have an open discussion about a doctrine that I find fascinating on both sides. Do I believe the Catholic doctrine, yes. If that upsets you, sorry! I'm not angry that you disagree with me! I really find your points interesting. I don't agree with most of them, but that's okay. What upsets me is the way you are choosing to present your points. We are, as Stephanie said, brothers and sisters in Christ. That is the core. That is what matters. I'm not going to to continue to debate you in this issue. I never wanted a debate. All I wanted was an honest and open discussion.
So I finally had a chance to read everyones comments and I must say there is a lot of things being discussed which is great. There are also many things I would like to respond to and dialoge about as well but because of my bodybuilding comp this weekend I need to focus on training and preparing for that so I will respond after this weekend. I do want to say real quick that there seems to be a misconception about the comments that I've posted, my intentions ,that I've been making blanket statements about Catholic Doctrine and that my comments have been hostile and angry. First let me just say I'm truly sorry if that's how my comments and responses have been coming across, second as far as me making blanket statements if you do re read my comments you won't find any. Please do. Everything that I have said I've made sure that they were backed up with scripture or with what Catholic Doctrine actually teaches. I mean this in love. If I haven't, again I sincerely apologize!!! I think we have to remember that when there are discussions like the ones were having on such weighty issues that do have eternal consequences things can get heated very quickly and comments can b misunderstood or taken the wrong way especially when we are behind our computer screens it’s hard to see the true attitude and tone of a person and especially when there are disagreements or when points are brought up that someone might disagree with. Also I need to clarify and explain why I even responded in the first place. I originally had no intention to comment on this blog but to just read thru it because of the link I saw on my FB wall. But when I read this post I saw statements that were made in regards to Luther that I felt needed to be addressed and clariffied also there where other statements on this blog that have been directed towards protestantism and reformed theology which don’t bother me at all, I really do mean that.
But what I had issue with was the picture that the doctrine of Faith alone ,by grace alone in Christ alone was painted in a way that those who hold to that view don’t understand and mis represent the Roman Catholic doctrine which has been argued that the church has always believed the Roman Catholic view of Justification but I do have to say In all love and gentleness if we are honest history and the writings of the early church patriarchs disagree with that! This is why I’ve disagreed and have brought up the points that I have with scripture to point out that the doctrine of Faith Apart from works is what justifies in the end is taught in light of all scripture if we actually interpret it in light of all the scriptures. My responses mainly have to deal with the argument about Justification that has been presented with scriptures that don’t fully support this view in light of all the scriptures, I believe there have been verses that have been used out of context, for example James ,Rev and Matthew and not interpreted in light of other verses that refute the argument and contradict the very verses being use. This is the very thing that’s at issue here. Seriously in all love and gentleness I’m not doing this to be argumentitive or to throw stones which I feel this is what some are thinking but it’s only to point out the inconsistentcies I believe is in the arguments being made. My purpose is not to start some dragout knockout debate with anyone but bring to light some things in this post that are being misrepresented. I truly do admit tho that I haven’t been paying a lot of attention to the way my comments sound to others and how they might come across to others, not because I’m trying to be ugly but I tend to just start typing and commenting on a point or comment, in the future I will try to be more aware of that! And for the record I don’t claim to be some scholar or theologian, but it’s just that years ago I was confronted with these quostions; Why do I believe the doctrines I believe, because of a pastor, my church ,the reformation? Every other religion thinks there religion and doctrine is true. What makes Christianity true? Can I prove from an objective standard that what I believe is true? This is why I believe it is very very very important that anything we hold to or argue for we must have a clear ,logical and biblical understanding of what we believe. Seriously I really do look forward to discussing these things, they are important. In the end we must always ask questions about the doctrines and beliefs we hold to. Why do we believe something or our position to be true? Can we prove it to be true from an objective standard, and in the end does our view or belief truly give God the ultimate and supreme glory or do we get the glory.
In Love
Torrie
Just wanted to respond real quick to some things said to me. Again I apologize for having to split up my comments and this will be the last time I respond on this post anyone wants to keep discussion on this topic.
“Okay, a faith that walks toward righteousness and good works...I hate to say this to you, Torrie, but that is an awesome Catholic statement.”
April a faith that walks toward righteousness and good works is not a faith that tries to justify itself by those means. True repentance which comes from real faith does walk towards righteousness it’s the reaction of a heart that has been transformed. I think you might be misinterpreting my words there juuussst a little :)
Romans 6:12-14 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
2 Corinthians 5:17,18 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.
Ezekiel 36:24-27 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them....cont
“I know that you can quote scripture based on interpretation, and I can quote scripture based on apostolic tradition and apostolic teaching/interpretation and we will never agree.
I've watched debates, I've read books from both sides. To steal from David Anders, who is a convert from Calvinism to Catholicism, "I became Catholic, not necessarily because of what I found wrong with Protestantism, but because of what I found right with Catholicism."
Well I think there’s some problems with your statements. Not trying to start an argument or a fight but first of all I’m not quoting anything from my own interpretation , the scriptures are self evident it’s up to us to make sure we read them in their right context. So I think your wrong there April! Second , you’ve been doing the very same thing that your accusing me of doing plus the Roman Catholic Church uses it’s interpretation to interpret scripture. So how is that any different? It begs the question. Scripture is too clear that Faith alone justifies a sinner and that the Faith that justifies comes from God not man! Even the early church patriarchs understood this and taught Justification by faith alone. This is one of the reasons that there was such a protest against Rome even by those who came before Reformation. John Wycliff, Jan Hus and Girolamo Savonarola just to name a few.
Clement of Rome “This was not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves. Nor are we justified by our own wisdom, understanding, godliness, or works that we have done in holiness of heart. Rather, we are justified by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men.” (ANF, Book 1, page 13).
Polycarp “Into this joy, many persons desire to enter. They know that “by grace you are saved, not of works,” but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.” (ANF Eastern writer, Book 1, Page 33).
Justin Martyr “For Abraham was declared by God to be righteous, not on account of circumcision, but on account of faith.” (ANF Eastern writer, Book 1, Page 245).
Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).
Athanasius: "Not by these ( human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."
....cont
My point in posting these quotes is not to be mean spirited or argumentive by any means but to point out that everything that I have said has not come from my own opinions but only from what I have read from Catholic doctrine, from the testimonies of former Catholic Priests and nuns , from two friends of mine who grew up in the Catholic Church and left as adults and from Roman Catholic Apologists! So Stephanie I apologize if this has offended you but I promise my words have not come from my own opinions. I am still reading and learning about the Roman Catholic Doctrine from articles and videos by RC Apologists and reading and listening to testimonies of both ex-Catholics and ex- Protestant.
April you said, “Wow...that is a BOLD statement, Torrie. I wasn't even going to address this issue further, but, in the light of making "valid arguments" and all, I think I have to.
We don't find problems AT ALL with scripture on this subject. The only "problem" you might find is that you, personally, don't agree with the Church's teachings on the scriptures. Again,as you said, don't make blanket statements or generalizations. “
Just to be fair and clear up any misunderstandings that actually wasn’t my comment. If you do get a chance to reread what I wrote you’ll notice that I posted a quote made by Dr. Micheal Horton which was actually his opening statement in a conference between Roman Catholic theologians and protestant theologians. I quoted Dr. Horton because of his integrity and the fact that he could actually back up what he was saying. Here’s the link to the entire transcript.
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/are_we_justified_by_faith_alone.shtml
I promise that my comments will not come from my own personal opinion. I do apologize if that’s how it looks. Also I think I need to point out as well that Dr. Horton also points out that there have been Catholic theologians which he quotes who have admitted that the scriptures do describe Justification as being Imputed and not Infused. Again I do hope that no one thinks that I’m being mean spirited or trying to start an argument and I apologize if any of this has sounded unloving! I really do love you all and deeply care I seriously mean that but I do think when discussing these issues esp justification we need to be willing to lay everything out on the table dealing with history, doctrines/doctrinal issues and not act as if everything is black and white. I’ll be the first to admit that I have problems with things within Protestantism and I don’t have a problem discussing those issues and also be the first to admit that I have problems with things within Roman Catholicism and I don’t have a problem discussing that either. When all is said and done my affiliation is neither protestant/reformed, Catholic or a Church etc... it’s just Jesus Christ, that’s all, that’s where salvation is found because he is Salvation and nothing else!
Always in Love
Torrie
I will def check out the website and read his story, sounds very interesting. Again I say this with gentleness April. I could make the same type of argument April. I can point out a handful of Former Priests and nuns who left the Roman Catholic Church because in their words “they left the Catholic Church and embraced Faith Alone and Scripture Alone because they found what was wrong with Roman Catholic Doctrine and that it did not line up with scriptures and hold to the teachings of the Apostles”. I’ll list a few. I personally don’t use these type of arguments because they are self defeating. I mean Muslims, Mormons and Budhists etc. can use the same argument. Everything I have said in regard to Catholic doctrine has not come from myself.
Former Priests:
Henry Gregory Adams, “"The monastic life and the sacraments prescribed by the Roman Catholic Church did not help me to come to know Christ personally and find salvation...I realized that the man-made sacraments of my church and my good works were in vain for salvation. They lead to a false security." (p. 3)
Joseph Tremblay, "My theology has taught me that salvation is by works and sacrifices....my theology gives me no assurance of salvation; the Bible offers me that assurance....I had been trying to save myself on my works...I was stifled in a setting in which I was pushed to do good works to merit my salvation." (pp. 9, 11-12)
Bartholomew F. Brewer, “"I finally understood that I had been relying on my own righteousness and religious efforts and not upon the completed and sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic religion had never taught me that our own righteousness is fleshly and not acceptable to God, nor that we need to trust in his righteousness alone...during all those years of monastic life I had relied on the sacraments of Rome to give me grace, to save me." (p. 25)
Hugh Farrell, "I knew from the teachings of the priests and nuns that I could not hope to go directly to heaven after my death. My Roman Catholic catechism taught me that after death I had to pay for the temporal punishment due to my sins. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that 'the souls of the just which, in a moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sin, enter purgatory.'" (p. 29)
Alexander Carson, "In my letter of resignation from the Roman Catholic Church and Ministry, I stated to the bishop that I was leaving the priesthood because I could no longer offer the Mass, as it was contrary to the Word of God and to my conscience." (pp. 54-55)
Bob Bush, "The Roman Catholic Church adds works, and that you have to do these specific things [keeping its laws, rule and regulations] in order to be saved, whereas the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is by grace that we are saved, not by works." (pp. 75-76)
These quotes are taken from the book by former Catholic Priest Richard Bennet, Far from Rome, Near to God: Testimonies of 50 Converted Roman Catholic Priests...cont
My point in posting these quotes is not to be mean spirited or argumentive by any means but to point out that everything that I have said has not come from my own opinions but only from what I have read from Catholic doctrine, from the testimonies of former Catholic Priests and nuns , from two friends of mine who grew up in the Catholic Church and left as adults and from Roman Catholic Apologists! So Stephanie I apologize if this has offended you but I promise my words have not come from my own opinions. I am still reading and learning about the Roman Catholic Doctrine from articles and videos by RC Apologists and reading and listening to testimonies of both ex-Catholics and ex- Protestant.
Again sorry about the commnets being so long.
In Love, your brother in Christ
Torrie
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