Sola Scriptura: Death by a Thousand (or Ten) Qualifications?
July 3, 2011

Introduction
The doctrine of sola scriptura (“Scripture alone”) began its life as a concern for proper authority in religious matters. By “authority” here I mean something like “that which has the right to compel agreement.” A religious authority would be one which has the right to compel faith (orthodoxy) and actions (orthopraxy). This does not mean that one cannot make free choices in these matters, but simply that in cases of faith and action, a person’s refusal to agree with the authority would signal an objective wrong on the part of the one refusing to submit (should that person wish to remain in the religion at least).It seems clear that all human authority in religious matters would be superseded by God’s. Now, since God is clearly the authority for a Christian, and since the only record of God’s communication that all Christian bodies believe to be inspired is the Bible, the Bible must have the top spot as far as authorities go. This was the original sense of sola scriptura – the Bible is the ultimate authority in matters of faith and actions – not that it was the only authority (cf. The Shape of Sola Scriptura or Getting the Reformation Wrong).
Why call it “Scripture alone” then? Because all of the Protestant “sola’s” are contrasts with what the reformers saw as distortions in Roman Catholic theology. Salvation through “Christ alone” (solus Christus) obviously did not mean that, given Christ, salvation simply followed. Rather, “Christ alone” meant something like “Jesus Christ, without the addition of something else [church, priesthood, etc.], is all that is required to make salvation possible.” The reformers taught that faith is also required of course – but not faith plus works (thus, sola fide). Sola scriptura meant that Scripture alone was the ultimate authority in religious matters as opposed to including Church tradition or the teachings of men.
While sola scriptura is still sometimes expressed along the lines of Scripture alone having “supreme and final authority in faith and life” (source), many evangelical Christians couch sola scriptura more in terms of denying any authority outside of the Bible. If Scripture alone is the ultimate authority, then it is thought that to follow that a “Bible-only” methodology for doing theology will keep one safe from the errors of mere human teaching. (For a treatment of the original, and more conservative idea, see Keith Mathison’s The Shape of Sola Scriptura – and for critical responses to this view see CTC or NLG). The first page of a Google search brought up two representative statements of this popular understanding of sola scriptura:
“Scripture alone is called God’s word (cf. Jn.10:35; 2 Tim.3:16; 2 Pt.1:20), and in 1 Cor. 4:6 we are specifically told ‘not to go beyond what is written.’. . . Not once did Jesus speak well about traditions. Neither did Peter nor Paul as he states in Col. 2:8 ‘Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.’” (Source).
“The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition. The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and keep personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible.” (Source)
But can Evangelicals consistently reject extra-biblical authority? As will be made clear below, I do not think so. Bible-alone theology may sound very fine when constrained to an abstract ideal, but as Antony Flew once said, a good hypothesis can “be killed by inches, the death by a thousand qualifications.”
Even allowing that the Bible is the final and ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice, it still must be understood. That is, the Bible’s authoritative teaching resides in the message it conveys – not the physical book itself. And discovering the message of the Bible requires navigating through many layers of human interaction first. These layers of human interaction are like lenses through which the Bible’s message is seen. It seems to me, then, that to whatever degree these interpretive layers influence how one understands the Bible’s message, to that degree they have an authoritative function (at least practically speaking). This seems to introduce the very kind of human authority that the popular sense of sola scriptura claims to avoid. Below are presented ten such layers for consideration.
Linguistic Layer
The average-Evangelical-in-America-today often thinks that he “just believes his Bible” when it comes to his religious convictions. But if you asked him, “What exactly is the Bible?” he would probably answer, “The Word of God.” But the Bible he is holding almost certainly does not contain the literal words of God – at least not how he is probably thinking of them. Let’s begin here, for one important layer of authoritative reliance required for today’s Bible-believer is linguistic.The Bible is actually a bound collection of writings written in three ancient languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and (Koine) Greek. Since our average-Evangelical-in-America-today does not understand these ancient languages fluently, the Bible he holds is almost certainly a translation of the words of God. But there is a plethora of Bible translation “versions” on the shelf of the average book store, and translation issues are not always minor. For example, are we to “abstain from all appearance of evil” as the KJV has it, or are we to “abstain from every form of evil” as modern versions state? And try looking up Matthew 17:21 or 23:14 in the NIV sometime!
So how did our average-Evangelical-in-America-today choose from among them? Was his choice authoritative? And if so, was he operating as his own authority in the matter? Or, assuming he researched these versions, would not the source(s) he consulted for his decision have, in a sense, authoritatively determined what he is going to read in his Bible? Further, how were these authorities chosen? What if they were wrong? And how could he ever find out?
Suppose our average-Evangelical-in-America-today decides that trusting some extra-biblical authority to pick his Bible version is not a safe practice – for sola scriptura says no authority outside Scripture is trustworthy enough for such a decision. There seems only one way to solve the problem: stop relying on them. The only way he could authoritatively choose the best Bible version without invoking the authority of mere men would be to become an authority himself. That is, he will have to become an authority on the original languages for himself. But, of course, any teacher of biblical languages will herself be another extra-biblical authority. In fact, it is authoritative linguists that (hopefully) were responsible for the different Bible versions themselves. But if these authorities cannot be trusted to produce trustworthy Bible translations, how can they be trusted to teach others how to do so?
Further, how long will it take to achieve an authoritative linguistic status? Given the training available at many schools, 7-10 years is probably wildly conservative (and that’s if one does not add in Aramaic and any other cognate languages that factor into translation). This also assumes that our average-Evangelical-in-America-today can study full time.
Translational-Interpretative Layer
However, even after learning vocabulary and grammar, the fact is that words do not change into thoughts without interpretation. Even if our average-Evangelical-in-America-today learns the original languages, this does not mean that interpretation is not part of the process of translation. Translation involves far more than simple word replacement. Just like in English, the biblical languages do not come with neat, immutable dictionaries. Even theologically significant words like “save,” “justification,” “sanctification,” and “resurrection” are not always used the same way in Scripture.To really translate the original languages correctly, one must be familiar with how that language was used at the time of the original writing. To do so, the other writings of the same chronological, geographical, and cultural background must be studied. Indeed, this is how the standard lexicons derive their data. But who can know which lexicon to trust? Biases come into play with lexicons as well (consider BAGD’s treatment of glossa where, after noting the term simply means “languages,” there is suddenly “no doubt about the thing referred to, namely the broken speech of persons in religious ecstasy”). Further, room must be left for linguistic innovation. The Bible was written in living languages, thus it is entirely possible that subtle usage changes were being made that are lost on later readers relying on typical usage.
But again, for sake of argument let us stipulate that our average-Evangelical-in-America-today has somehow overcome these issues too. After gaining unbiased insight into linguistic usage that even experts might have missed, he now needs to consider an even more difficult interpretive issue.
Hermeneutical-Philosophical Layer
Language and translation study may give our average-Evangelical-in-America-today knowledge of what ancient texts say, but understanding what they mean is another issue.Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation of meaning. Is there an over-arching hermeneutic that works for the whole Bible? Do we simply take all words literally (at “face value”), or are some non-literal understandings actually more accurate? Literal hermeneutic theory might seem safest, but of course this will obscure any non-literal texts. The ancient Church had a four-fold hermeneutic. They believed for centuries that the Bible had literal, allegorical, moral, and analogical senses. While this four-fold hermeneutic is often decried today, consider the difficulty faced in taking many of the prophetic fulfillments of Jesus’ birth with a literal/grammatical/historical-only hermeneutic (e.g., Isa. 7:14 cf. Mt. 1:18-25; Jer. 31:15 cf. Mt. 2:16-18; or Hos. 11:1 cf. Mt. 2:13-15). Non-Christians have field days with the original “intent” of these passages and their alleged misuse by the gospel writers.
Few seriously argue that Scripture can be taken in a purely literalistic fashion, for at least some of the Bible is poetry, metaphor, hyperbole, etc. But recognition of these things requires extra-biblical knowledge – for the Bible itself does not always signal these elements. So, in many cases, hermeneutics becomes philosophy of language. But the Bible is not a useful source for coming to one’s philosophy of language either, for one must already have a philosophy of language before the Bible can be interpreted!
Further, literary devices like hyperbole and metaphor rely entirely on one’s experience of reality to recognize. But reality, too, must be interpreted. Thus, correct notions of metaphysics are necessary if we are to avoid subjectivity in biblical interpretation. Thus, one must get one’s metaphysics and linguistic philosophies correct before hermeneutic theories can be properly evaluated or applied. Either philosophical field could easily take up a lifetime.
But let us allow for super-human accomplishments on the part of our average-Evangelical-in-America-today, and grant that perhaps his view of reality and language are exactly correct, and his views are completely uncluttered by inaccurate understandings of his personal experiences. The authorities involved in such pursuits (even if they include only the philosopher himself) are going to once again be mostly (if not entirely) extra-biblical.
And the work is not over yet.
Historical-Cultural Layer
Abstract language meaning might be objectively understood via a proper hermeneutic, but its specific referents can remain unknown. The particular realities that words pick out are not shared by the biblical writers and our average-Evangelical-in-America-today, for they are thousands of years, and thousands of miles, removed from one another.Sometimes important cultural details are sometimes lost to history. For example, what exactly is the “head covering” Paul refers to in his letter to the Corinthians, and what was its purpose? What is this “baptism for the dead” Paul refers to in the same letter, and what was its purpose? Mere knowledge of language, even coupled to a good hermeneutic, cannot answer these questions. And sometimes we do not even know a question should be asked. When Jesus warns the Laodiceans to be either hot or cold, not many later readers recognized the import of those two temperatures to a city without its own water supply.
A thorough knowledge of history and culture is necessary to avoid anachronism and other such errors, and to catch subtle remarks that the original readers would have recognized. In the New Testament, for example, we come upon scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, synagogues, and a Roman Government without much introduction or explanation in many cases. Yet none of these are known from the Old Testament. The Bible causes these issues, it does not solve them. But to whom can our average-Evangelical-in-America-today go to learn about these things if not extra-biblical authorities? Unless, of course, he simply becomes an expert on history on his own. A time machine (coupled with an anti-aging device) perhaps?
Assuming that our average-Evangelical-in-America-today somehow (miraculously?) manages to meet the above criteria, the job is still not done. For once one knows what a text says and what it means, one must then grasp what it teaches.
Applicational Layer
After discovering what a text says and what it means, it is time to get something out of it. Application answers the question, “What is the text teaching?” Here we run into more examples of Scripture not supplying easy answers.Do the stories of people speaking in tongues in the Book of Acts teach us that believers today must do likewise? Is the head covering in 1 Corinthians a practice that has some parallel today? Does the acceptance of slavery throughout the Bible indicate that it has an acceptable place in the world today? Why do we practice the Lord’s Supper but not foot washing when Jesus commanded both during the same talk? These sorts of questions cannot be answered simply by knowing what the Bible says or means.
Discovering how the truths of Scripture apply to us today is the whole goal of Bible study – yet the Bible is rarely clear on just how to do so. Many disagreements over Christian practice do not involve issues of translation or interpretation, because knowing what the text means does not necessarily tell us what it teaches. Even in cases of prescription (rather than mere description), issues of cultural relevance, proper dispensations, audience similarity, general vs. particular commands, etc. all remain. Now subjects such as ethics, moral philosophy, theology, and others come into play. And, since it is the Bible that seems to raise the above issues, it seems that once again extra-biblical information is required.
But what if our average-Evangelical-in-America-today sought this extra-biblical information from God rather than man? Wouldn’t that solve the problem? It depends on who you ask.
Mystical Layer
The “mystical” layer is unique to this list in that it is both more and less controversial than the others – especially when it comes to authority. On the “less controversial” side, I think most Christians will agree that without the aid of God, the Scriptures cannot be fully “grasped” (I am being purposefully vague in order to make the statement general enough to be true). Now, whether this help comes in the form of direct explanation of textual meaning, divinely inspired objectivity, subjective personal application, or any of a host of other explanations – God is doing something when the faithful read His word.The difficulty is the “more controversial” part. For one thing, there are a number of views concerning God’s role in interpretation (sometimes called “illumination”). Some believe that God only steps in to call the “close ones,” while others think they are getting a live feed from God’s mind via the pages of the Bible virtually every time they open it. In either case (and for any in between), if the Bible itself cannot settle a given view, then claiming that God’s aid sealed the deal would be to invoke divine authority for one’s own understanding. The result should be the very kind of extra-biblical authority that sola scriptura seems to seek to avoid. Further, to whatever extent God is helping out, that part of the interpretative process would seem to be free from error. But few will allow (whether theologically or pragmatically) for any infallibility being introduced into the process. For most this would smack of either infallible Catholic papal claims or charismatic prophetic craziness – neither of which comport with sola scriptura.
A more difficult fact to deal with is that while the Church underwent one or two important splits in its first 1,500 years, “sola scriptura Christianity” has managed to break itself into more than 20,000 denominations in the last 500. If God’s guidance in some way insured some allowable extra-biblical authority in understanding Scripture, then how could it be fairly determined which denomination (or, in many cases, which individual) has it? It all sounds very impressive when a preacher or teacher challenges his hearers to check his words against the Bible, personal study, or prayer – but with the abundance of interpretive options awaiting the researcher (consider, for example, the popular “multi-view” book series put out by more than one evangelical publisher), this challenge is hardly threatening.
I will leave additional theological issues with the mystical layer aside, for they do not necessarily help or hinder either side in the present consideration of sola scriptura. For now it is enough to note that whatever role God plays in the process of biblical interpretation, it does not seem to get what is needed to avoid extra-biblical authority. Even if a non-question begging sola scriptura theory of (and evidence for) mystical illumination were forthcoming, the chaotic theological results are not easily explained.
Our average-Evangelical-in-America-today will not, therefore, be able to trust in personal mystical guidance and follow sola scriptura at the same time. So for now, let’s just get back to the Bible – the one source we know we can trust.
If, that is, we really have one.
Textual Layer
Supposing that our average-Evangelical-in-America-today learns the original biblical languages so well that he can pick up an original Greek New Testament or Hebrew/Aramaic Old Testament and read it as easily as he can an English translation. He has overcome all interpretive and philosophical biases, and has learned enough about history and culture to catch every nuance that an original reader would have. He is also accessing God’s mystical guidance (if it is available) without distortion. No more “Bible versions” for this average-Evangelical-in-America-today, right?Wrong.
Unfortunately, the Bible version issue does not disappear once one masters the original languages. Now he must also choose which “original Bible” to read. For the New Testament alone he must choose between the Minority and the Majority text traditions (and there are different versions of each of these forms, such as the Nestle-Aland or the United Bible Society’s, or the Textus Receptus – each having had numerous revisions). The Old Testament, too, has some textual issues – the most notable being that the Hebrew manuscript copies (the “Masoretic” texts) that we have are much later than the original writings. There is also the Greek translation of the Old Testament (known as the Septuagint, or “LXX”) which is quoted more in the New Testament than the MT, yet sometimes differs considerably from the Hebrew texts we have.
Arguments for each of these versions abound, and have spawned their own fields of study commonly referred to as Textual Criticism. Textual Criticism deals with issues arising from the fact that we do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible. What we do have are thousands of copies, some very early, that must be sorted through and compared for accuracy. As skeptics are happy to point out, few of these manuscripts agree completely. Now, this is not such a huge problem since given thousands of comparisons we can arrive at a pretty solid understanding of what the original must have said. But differences (“variants”) remain, and questions need to be answered when it comes to deciding which variants to use when producing the “original” edition. In how many manuscripts does the variant reading occur? What are the dates for these manuscripts? In what region of the world were these manuscripts found? What could have caused these varying readings? Which reading can best explain the origin of the other readings? Etc.
A lot of work, then, is needed just to produce an accurate original language Bible (assuming, of course, that the original wording has indeed been retained amongst all these disparate copies). How is our average-Evangelical-in-America-today going to choose between them? Well, unless he is willing to trust in the text-critical authorities, he’ll have to learn text criticism itself. Worse, unless he wants to trust in the people who typed up what is actually found on these ancient manuscripts, he’ll have to gain access to all of them directly, from all over the world, and make his own copies. To do otherwise would be to trust extra-biblical authorities (besides himself) with copying the words of God.
But let’s cut our average-Evangelical-in-America-today some slack and say that he does somehow gain the true perspective on text criticism and obtains his own copies of all available manuscripts. How long will it take to go through all these copies? Professionals spend their entire careers working on mere subsets of these document collections. This pushes the possibility of avoiding extra-biblical authority even farther from the already outrageous situation we have already granted to our average-Evangelical-in-America-today.
And speaking of collections – why does our average-Evangelical-in-America-today trust anyone to tell him which books he should even be including? Welcome to the canonical layer.
Canonical Layer
Despite what our average-Evangelical-in-America-today may have at once thought, he now knows that the Bible is not “a book.” Rather, it is a collection of various writings that are bound together for convenience. But who decided which books are in this collection? And how did they do so?The official title of the biblical collection is “canon.” Now, the canon of Scripture did not begin to be solidified until the 3rd or 4th century. The Church was teaching from both oral and written traditions before that time, holding authoritative councils, writing the creeds that would determine Christian orthodoxy, and using all of these in the process of canonization. Thus, ironically, it would seem that to ignore this early extra-biblical tradition might also justify ignoring the biblical canon itself.
Is the average-Evangelical-in-America-today just as free to jettison the biblical canon as he is the traditional Church creeds and councils? Would an average-Evangelical-in-America-today feel free to dismiss certain books of the Bible if they did not sit well with him? Would he be free to add to the canon should he “feel led” to do so? If so, what is the standard by which he could or could not do so? And how would these arguments work with or against extra-biblical Church authority?
Numerous tests for canonicity have been suggested to avoid this problem, but many of them are the result of a-historical attempts at “reverse engineering” the canon. Tests include: evidence of inspiration, proper spiritual character, church edification, doctrinal accuracy, apostolic authorship or endorsement, general church acceptance, etc. The problem is that several of these rely on subjective criteria, others are objective but rely on the testimony of extra-biblical tradition for their evidence. To take just one example: the criterion of apostolicity relies on knowledge of who wrote the book in question and / or the author’s relation to an apostle. But several NT books do not name their author (e.g., the Gospels and Hebrews), and others are vague (e.g., James, Revelation). Moreover, even the books that do name their authors can only be trusted as far as they are deemed trustworthy in the first place. The Church did not accept the gospels of Thomas or of Mary – why not? The facts are that the members of the Church closest to the time of the apostles disputed the content of the NT canon, and that this disputation continued well into the Reformation (on both Catholic and Protestant sides), and disagreements of varying degrees continue right up to today. Thus the escape from extra-biblical authority sought by these tests is often lacking.
Now our average-Evangelical-in-America-today faces a critical dilemma: he’s spent years learning the languages, figuring out the best text-critical theory, and somehow obtained his own copies of all the relevant manuscripts – but he still has to trust extra-biblical authorities to even know which books belong in the Bible in the first place. But let us simply suppose once again that our average-Evangelical-in-America-today gets this one right. He nails the canon and somehow justifies his choices without any appeal to extra-biblical authority (perhaps he uses Calvin’s test of self-authenticating testimony . . . which of course is also extra-biblical). Is he done? Can he now be sure of his Bible’s teachings without relying on any outside authority?
Hardly. Indeed, he has only begun.
Traditional Layer
If the Church’s traditions are not considered authoritative, then not only are its biblical interpretations and extra-biblical teachings called into question – but so might its councils, creeds, and the canon of Scripture itself. For whatever arguments serve to create distrust in the authority of the early Church also makes other areas of orthodoxy open to criticism, and how can sola scriptura survive if we cannot be sure of what counts as “scriptura” in the first place? But many claim that the whole point of sola scriptura is to avoid traditions! Isn’t that what gets the Church into trouble in the first place?Does Scripture teach the faithful to mistrust tradition? No, it does not. Rather, it warns of following false traditions (just like false philosophy, false religion, etc.). It’s the “false” part that is important. Claims such as the ones mentioned in the introduction concerning Scriptures’ alleged negative outlook on tradition must simply ignore other verses to remain consistent (which is made easier by the NIV translators who purposefully translated the Greek term paradosis as “traditions” in its negative contexts, and as “teachings” in its positive references!). For example, the same apostle who warned against following man-made traditions also said:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle”Now, to be absolutely sure of one’s understanding of Christian doctrine from the Bible alone, at least three things must be the case:
(2 Thessalonians 2:15)
“Withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us”
(2 Thessalonians 3:6)
“Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you”
(1 Corinthians 11:2)
- First, authoritative tradition must have ceased with the apostles (to avoid the self-defeating proposition that the Bible – which teaches that traditions must be trusted – alone is trustworthy).
- Second, the Bible would have to be perfectly clear in what it teaches (to avoid any possible misunderstanding, each part would have to have this clarity – for if it did not it may be the case that one part would alter another).
- Third, everything the apostles wanted taught must have been recorded in Scripture (because the slightest bit of additional information could radically alter our understanding of anything else we read).
As an example, let’s consider communion (the Lord’s Supper / the Eucharist). Paul told the Corinthians concerning communion, “the rest I will set in order when I come,” (1 Cor. 11:34). Suppose that what he later said to them was, “By the way, Jesus Christ is physically present in the communion bread and wine.” That one sentence would be a game changer for interpretation of not only 1 Corinthians 11, but for John 6 and Matthew 26 as well! Now, we do not seem to know what Paul “set in order” concerning communion when he came to them later. 2 Corinthians says nothing about it. Paul does mention two other letters to the Corinthians that we do not have, so perhaps it was in those. Or maybe in the epistle that he sent to the church at Laodicea (Colossians 4:16) he said something of interpretive importance. Either way, it did not make it into the Bible – and to be 100% certain of his Bible-only understandings, our average-Evangelical-in-America-today would have to know for sure.
What we do know is that the Church held to a non-memorial-only view of communion for nearly 1,500 years. This view might not be clear from Scripture, but it is no less clear than Zwingli’s memorial-only view. How can sola scriptura solve this debate then? The same could be said for the Bishop/Elder distinction – this does not seem clear in Scripture, but it was recognized very early by the Church whose leaders were taught by the apostles. For the average-Evangelical-in-America-today, however, the early Church is not considered an authoritative source. So its tradition cannot be trusted to authoritatively solve the problem. This remains a problem even if some new bit of information surface, for these would be extra-biblical too.
Thus, even if our average-Evangelical-in-America-today can successfully demonstrate that no extra-biblical tradition is authoritative unless it accords with [his understanding of] Scripture, the issue remains. Judging extra-biblical tradition based on the Bible when the Bible is unclear is going to be a failed project. Yet for our average-Evangelical-in-America-today, it seems to be all he has to go on. Worse, in cases where extra-biblical traditions could legitimately overturn a Bible-only interpretation, then a Bible-only approach would never – even in principle – be able to authoritatively judge against extra-biblical tradition (for even apostolic teaching is extra-biblical if it did not make it into the Bible). Since such a situation is certainly possible, then given a Bible-only methodology, our average-Evangelical-in-America-today could only hope to arrive at probable interpretations. He would remain, ultimately, unsure of a great many things.
Now, mere logical possibility does not equal actual evidence. Perhaps arguments can be produced which support a contrary position, but since the Bible does not contain them, they are extra-biblical too. This should cause a problem for the popular view of sola scriptura, for these sorts of positions turn out to be not so much biblical as theological.
Theological Layer
Since the Bible does not say that it alone is trustworthy or authoritative, the idea that it is so is a theological one. In many areas holding to theological positions that are not clearly stated in the Bible is not necessarily a big problem, since many positions are based on theological speculation. Here, however, it becomes a bigger issue.It would be incoherent to claim that the Bible alone is a trustworthy source of theological information when the Bible itself does not say that it alone is a trustworthy source of theological information. In addition, it would also turn out to be self-defeating since the Bible itself teaches that other sources of revelation exist (e.g., the principles of natural theology and law found in Rom. 1-2). And, since the Bible actually commands believers to hold to “traditions” that they “heard” (see above), it simply cannot be the case that the Bible’s position is that traditions do not become authoritative until they are written down. Something like this might be argued theologically, but it is not a teaching directly supportable from the words of the Bible. The same could be said for limiting authoritative “traditions” to the words the Apostles left us in Scripture – this is not what the early Church taught, and it pre-dated the New Testament itself.
But even our average-Evangelical-in-America-today (who stopped being average a LONG time ago!) could defend these theological positions, some extra-biblical authority is in the picture – for the Bible does not teach them directly. Even doctrines said to be derived from Scripture are still adding something to the mere words of the Bible and are, to that extent, extra-biblical. And once again, although attractive in the abstract, the ideal that theology can be directly supported from Scripture alone and achieve the authority the Church desires is a position held by the very theologians who disagree the most over theology! (Consider the popular Counterpoints series.)
And this brings us back to the original problem.
Conclusion
Bible-only theology sounds fine as long as it remains an abstract principle (or slogan). The reality is much messier. At least the following authoritative layers would need to be peeled back before a strict Bible-only theological method could even theoretically succeed:- Linguistic – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative translators.
- Translational-Interpretational – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative interpreters.
- Hermeneutical-Philosophical – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative philosophers.
- Historical-Cultural – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative historians.
- Applicational – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative teachers.
- Mystical – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative personal views.
- Textual – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative text critics.
- Canonical – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative Church decisions.
- Traditional – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative traditions.
- Theological – to avoid having to trust non-authoritative theologians.
As stated in the introduction, it seems to me that to whatever degree these layers of human interaction influence how one understands the Bible’s message, to that degree they have a practical authoritative function. (Perhaps independent tests are available to assess each layer’s authoritative status without engaging in question-begging or misplaced confidence. If so, then these need to be spelled out more clearly.) Thus, it seems clear that the Bible in our hands can only be depended upon to deliver authoritative truth to the degree that the authorities at each layer can be trusted to deliver authoritative truth.
Now, if sola scriptura is understood as simply teaching that the Bible “alone is of supreme and final authority in faith and life,” then these problems may be avoided, for this would at least admit to the possibility (if not the necessity) of additional authorities. Under this view, sola scriptura can operate alongside extra-biblical authorities without necessarily placing any of them at a level that the Bible alone occupies. The pertinent question then becomes when these authorities can be considered trustworthy (when they are considered at all).
31 comments:
Finally had a chance to read this. Upon reading this I noticed something interesting. The author tries to set up a list of qualifications as a means to prove that the doctrine of Sola Scriptural is unattainable or illogical by arguing as if some how evangelicals believe in a “Solo Scriptura” which is not what Protestants believe! The error in this is that it’s a FALSE DILEMMA! This is what the doctrine of Sola Scriptural is:
6. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
7. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
(Westminster Confession, I.6-7)
Sola Scriptural has always dealt with these issues.....cont
Also what I find funny and ironic is that this post sounds a lot like what you hear coming out of the Emergent Church movement. Now the author accuses evangelicals of using non biblical sources as if that’s suppose to validate his argument when in fact both Protestants and roman Catholics use them. That’s not a problem for protestant’s we do acknowledge that because at the end of the day the scriptures themselves become the final authority because it alone is the objective source standard for truth pertaining to statements about faith and salvation not the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. Also speaking of tradition, as a side not, the tradition that is referred to in scripture is the tradition of the preaching of the gospel not the traditions(doctrines) of the Roman Catholic Church. Also he himself has to actually live by these exact standards that he accuses evangelicals of following when it comes to scripture. I mean is there not also hermeneutical issues with the dogmas like this, “outside the Roman Catholic Church there is no salvation” or statements like these:
“ The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"
“The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed...the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority." Canon and Tradition, p. 263
“The doctrines of the Catholic Church are entirely independent of Holy Scripture." Familiar Explanation of Catholic Doctrine, Rev. M. Muller, p.151
Also can all Christians accept Pope Boniface’s interpretation of this? (“It is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”) and as for textual concerns, what variants actually affect doctrine? If your gonna try to argue that Sola Scriptural can’t be logical because of qualifications that it imposes on itself ,which in fact don’t cause a problem for the reformed view. But yet the whole system of doctrines and dogmas based off of tradition within the Roman Catholic Church must follow these same qualifications which it can’t even pass! There is just sooooo much to say about this subject April and I think there needs to be some further discussion on this if your ever up for it. Also if you ever get a chance you should check out J.I. Packer’s book “Fundamentalism and the Word of God”.
Also here are a few articles one by J.I. Packer and by Theologian and Philosopher Greg Bahnsen(great source for the Transcendental Argument for God’s existence) on this delicate subject. In my opinion I think these articles explain the protestant view of Scriptural authority very well, I really do hope you give them a read.
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/bahnsen.html
http://www.the-highway.com/Authority_Packer.html
Wow..I think it's pretty interesting considering the author of this article is NOT a Roman Catholic. Doug Beaumont is a Protestant who is currently studying for his PhD at Southern Theological Seminary.
As for your comments about the RC church and its "traditions" I want to say a couple of things. First of all, you can't clump doctrine and tradition in the way you did. There are many traditions in the church that are NOT doctrine, they are simply traditions passed down, and they are NOT viewed as necessary for salvation. You really need to do more research from the RC side to understand the difference. Also, there are different traditions. There are Traditions of the faith and there are traditions of the faith. Be sure you know which is being referred to before you quote against it.
Also, be careful just throwing out random quotes as you did. There is nothing in the teachings of the church that puts the pope in a position of being God like, but there hae been corrupt popes who wished for it, no doubt. No one denies that. There have also been people who have allowed the traditions to become something they were not intended. But there are also those like St. Jerome who said "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ" and Pope John Paul II taught that we must be "saturated" in scripture in order to teach the true faith. Our current pope is a Biblical scholar who has written many many many books on the wealth of scripture.
Your comments continually show how little you know of the true teachings and faith of the church. It is easy to pull one line from the catechism and say it means something, the same way you can do that with any book. If you are looking with a preconceived notion you will find what you are looking for.
Have people left the church, yes. And most of the stories I've heard break my heart. So many people don't know their faith, and so much so that it is easy for them to be convinced it is something it isn't. So many people have been miseducated, and the church itself admits that there has been a big probem with education being insufficient. When I saught to learn about the Catolic faith, I went to Catholics. I didn't go to people outside of the church...I went to people in it. We both know that there are people on both sides that can write very good arguments against each other, but what IS the church? What does it teach? In a nutshell. It teaches the love and beauty of a savior who came and died for us all. It teaches that there is grace in abundance to ANY who accept it. It teaches that I can be baptised in the Holy Spirit and receive gifts enough to achieve God's calling. It teaches that there is forgiveness and love and mercy. We can argue doctrinal statements all day long, and I know that is what you like to do. I like to share the love of the faith I know. I want to share the wealth of beauty and grace and knowledge and truth that I have found in my faith journey. There are many many people out there standing where I stood four years ago not knowing what to think, or what to do. My first answer to them is "Jesus." Like Mother Theresa used to say, "Isn't Jesus enough?" YES, he is, and it hurts my soul that you don't believe that that is the true message of the Catholic faith.
“Wow..I think it's pretty interesting considering the author of this article is NOT a Roman Catholic. Doug Beaumont is a Protestant who is currently studying for his PhD at Southern Theological Seminary”.
I actually read his testimony before I commented on your post so I do realize that he is evangelical but that doesn’t make his argument true. This is one of the reasons that I made the comment that his argument sounds like those within the emergent movement like Rob Bell, Brian McClaren etc. which they would hold to mysticism end emotional experience as being equal or even better than the doctrine of sola scriptural and yet still refer to themselves in someways as Protestants. Now I’m not saying that this author holds to that view I’ve read some of his other posts but it like I said it sounds similar to that of the emergent movement. Also I’m very aware that his school was founded upon the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which the founders were very much opposed to layers of meaning or a leaning towards an Anglo-Catholic understanding of authority, Scripture, and tradition. Which in any case that doesn’t necessarily mean that the author has to hold to that view, the question is tho whether what he is saying is accurate of the doctrine of Sola scriptural holding to layers of meaning. The problem again which I pointed out is that he makes a false dilemma by making the doctrine of Sola Scriptural sound more like it’s saying “Solo Scriptural”. Let me reiterate again the doctrine of Sola Scriptural. Sola scriptural teaches that the Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith for the Church. The doctrine does not say that there are not other, fallible, rules of faith, or even traditions, that we can refer to and even embrace. It does say, however, that the only infallible rule of faith is Scripture. This means that all other rules, whether we call them traditions, confessions of faith, creeds, or anything else, are by nature inferior to and subject to CORRECTION by, the Scriptures. The Bible is an ultimate authority, allowing no equal, nor superior, in tradition or church. It is so because it is theopneustos, God-breathed, and hence embodies the very speaking of God, and must, of necessity therefore be of the highest authority. To say that Church tradition as Rome teaches(Sola Ecclesia) is equal to scripture in authority begs the question and becomes circular which is self-refuting. It goes against the Law of Non-contradiction, there are dogmas and beliefs that RCC claims but yet the scriptures do not verify it or refute it but yet Rome still holds them as true and authoritative. Examples like ,Papal succession, Papal Infallibility, Perpetual Virginity and Immaculate conception of Mary, the doctrine of Transubstantiation etc... I think what Doug might be forgetting is that he has to use these qualifications as well in some form of fashion even if he doesn’t hold to Sola Scriptural which I believe he does which is evident by reading some of his other blog posts, if not he can not know what is true . When any one speaks something as being authoritative there must always be qualifications I also pointed out that Roman Catholic Tradition or Sola Ecclessia must follow these same qualifications. It only follows logically that if Roman Catholic Doctrine teaches that it’s Tradition is to be held the same as inspired scripture and if Sola Scriptural sets up these layers of qualifications well then it only follows logically that Rome must adhere to these same layers of qualifications and it must also adhere to the same standard as scripture for it’s authority. Now Doug makes a terrific point about how there are many evangelicals who have this fundamentalist view of Sola Scriptural which ends up being expressed more like “solo scriptural” when it comes to scripture and authority which is misguided and shows that there are many within evangelical circles who have not been taught clearly what Sola Scriptural is or who have a very warped view of it. I totally agree spot on with him!
“There are many traditions in the church that are NOT doctrine, they are simply traditions passed down, and they are NOT viewed as necessary for salvation.”
April that is not true! Pope Pius IX added belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary as a requirement to have eternal life. This was part of one of his Papal bulls! How is it that this dogma is true yet there is not one shred of evidence in scripture or in the writings of the Apostolic Church Leaders. Pope Pius IX through the Papal Bull claimed the Pope is infallible and therefore is both above all laws of humanity and cannot be questioned by faithful Catholics. Again I ask the question April
“Your comments continually show how little you know of the true teachings and faith of the church. It is easy to pull one line from the catechism and say it means something, the same way you can do that with any book. If you are looking with a preconceived notion you will find what you are looking for. “
April I’m sorry but I think that’s just avoiding the issue. Seriously I’m not trying to throw stones or step on anyones shoes here and I mean this with love April but when one looks at the doctrines of Rome with all seriousness and searches the scriptures for authenticity of these doctrines like the Bereans mentioned in scripture and yet does not find them and then still cannot find Authenticity of these doctrines within the teachings of the Apostolic Church Leaders which the teachings of the Apostles where handed down to them thru Apostolic Succession one does not need a preconceived notion! April you have continued to accuse me of not knowing the teaching of RCC and you have accused me of making blanket statements but everything that have stated has come from Catholic sources and not only that April but the same things that I have brought up even Roman Catholic Apologists verify themselves in formal debates with Protestants. All my understanding of Catholic teaching and dogmas have come these very books which you can easily get on google books and other sources and have come from Catholic books quoted in formal debates.
“A catechism of the Catholic religion”, Author Joseph Deharbe
“Catholic belief: or, A short and simple exposition of Catholic doctrine”, Author Joseph Faà di Bruno
“Eusebius' Ecclesiastical history: according to the text of Burton”
Author Eusebius (of Caesarea, Bishop of Caesarea)
Catholic Faith and Practice: A manual of theology
“An advanced catechism of Catholic faith and practice: based upon the third Plenary council catechism, for use in the higher grades of Catholic schools”
History of Christianity(my own personal copy) by Zondervan Publishing
Excerpts from “Far from Rome, Near to God: Testimonies of 50 Converted Roman Catholic Priests”
The Conversion Story of Scott Hahn(the two Cd’s you gave to me)
cont....I am still reading these books and am still learning more about what Rome teaches but the explanations of the doctrines of the Catholic church are straight forward in these books. There are other books on my list as well that I plan to read when I have more time. April my aim here is not to be mean spirited, misleading or hurtful but to recognize what is true and uphold it and to expose what is not true and misleading. April I’ll quote to you a very honest question That I’ve thought about and that every one who holds to Roman Catholic teaching should also ponder as well that was asked of Jesuit Priest and Apologist Father Mitchtell Pacwa by Dr. James White on this very issue.
James White: “Can you name a single word, phrase or sentence spoken by Jesus Christ or by any of the Apostles that has been dogmatically defined by the roman catholic church that is not found in scripture? Because I’ve listened to Catholic converts, they write their conversion stories and they all say the things like, “ my eyes where opened when I realized that sola scriptural was wrong because the word of God was orally preached so there must be more. Then I have to say, “excuse me, what one word of the Apostle Paul, just one word has Paul ever spoke that Rome has ever dogmatically defined that does not exist in scripture? What did he say that Rome’s tradition gives you that scripture does not dogmatically? Where is it? A word from Jesus or from the Apostles? Father Mitchell Pacwa’s response: “There’s nothing”......cont
“We can argue doctrinal statements all day long, and I know that is what you like to do.”
April I’m not sure if this is an attack on my personality, please don’t paint me in that way as someone just looking for an argument to debate and that cares nothing about actually sharing Christ with people and actually living out the gospel. April the things that I have disagreed with you on are not mere un eccential doctrinal statements but are doctrinal statements and issues that have spiritual consequences and that Rome has declared as official dogmas of the Catholic Church that must be believed. April as I’ve said from the beginning I never have had any intentions in debating or even commenting on your blog. I don’t go around looking to pick a theological fight like some bully in a playground but I will argue against false statements and misleading arguments which don’t get me wrong I have read from your blog posts, that’s why I responded to some of your posts. April a little over 5 months ago I wanted to learn more about Roman Catholicism because I wanted to know why there was so many disagreements between Prot and Catholics which I was had only a surface level of understanding of. There where even times that I had heard you make claims about Roman Catholic dogma that I was unaware of and had never heard or seen in scripture. I even talked with you about me searching and reading testimonies of those who left Roman Catholicism and of those who joined Roman Catholicism. April what I continue to see is that the historical data, the teaching of the Apostolic Church leaders.. who had the teachings of the Apostles handed down to them from the Apostles which their preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the Apostles proved their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2, and 18:28, and John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be Apostles, Revelation 2:2. While you can demonstrate that someone like Irenaus does speak of an Apostolic tradition, however every time he defines what it is, it is sub-biblical it is derived from the biblical text. But it is Rome’s assertion that there is a two fold nature at least to tradition the written and the oral and that the scriptures are actually a sub-category of sacred tradition which is this concept that only Rome gets to define and redefine as the church pleases of the course of history The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the Old Testament which were also written in their letters and which do not agree with Roman Catholic Doctrine. I don’t expect you to take my word for it but I hope that you will continue to look at Church history and the Apostolic Church Fathers with a more critical eye April and not assume that every argument you make is valid just because Rome says so. It all comes down to this in my opinion. Is the Bible the final and infallible rule of faith for the Church? Or must we have other revelation from God that claim to be equal? Do we need the Book of Mormon which Mormons believe we must have, they say the bible doesn’t contain all the teachings of the church or the writings of the Watchtower which they say the same thing, or Mary Baker Eddy, or traditions of Rome or any other church that claim to be of equal Authority? Does the Bible teach its own sufficiency to function as the sole rule of faith, salvation for the Church?
In peace and love,your Brother in Christ, Torrie
Okay, first of all, I want to say that I still think you, while you are reading and searching, are not understanding. I think you are reading for truth, but are clouded by what you have already decided is true. And that's okay! My goal is not to convert people from their place to the RC, but to make sure people who have questions can have an answer. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know how to find them.
First of all, I would like to point out, that scripture tells us that "the pillar and bullwark of the truth" is the "church of the living God." I Tim 3:14
Second, I would like to quote the Catechism on scripture and tradition-- (83) The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they recevied from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition."
I would also like to explain the layers of the Church teachings. First there is deposit of faith...scripture (the Gospel), then there is dogma which are things that are not stated necessarily specifically in scripture, but are defined in it such as the Holy Trinity. Third, there are doctrines--which emerge from dogma and understanding of scripture and Tradition, then there are traditions (little t) and practices.
The question you asked, that was asked to Fr. Mitch is a good one, and one that I think proves, not disproves the Church teachings. The Church hold Scripture in the highest esteem as the Word of God! Just because we don't claim sola scriptura, doesn't mean we don't acknowledge the Bible as the inspired and infallible Word of God!!!
The Pope is only infallible when presenting a doctrine, everything the pope says is not infallible, and can be corrected. As we all know, there have been times that has happened. There have been times that the Church has apologized and corrected itself in its decisions (BIG case being Galileo, the Crusades, etc.)
It was Tradition itself that gave us the Canon of scripture we use today!
And you greatly misunderstood my statement. What I said was that there are traditions that are NOT necessary for salvation. I didn't say NONE are necessary for salvation. BUT I would like to point out that a Papal Bull is not infallible. It is simply a letter. There are Papal Bulls about everything! Trust me, not infallible teachings."The dogma of infallibility was formally proclaimed at the First Vatican Council in 1870. There are several requirements for a dogmatic, papal infallible pronouncement: (1) The pronouncement must be made by the lawful successor to Peter. (2) The subject matter must be in the area of faith and morals. (3) The pope must be speaking ex cathedra, that is from the very seat and office of Peter. In this way he must be specifically intending to proclaim a doctrine, binding the entire Church to its assent. If one or more of these elements is missing, there is no infallible pronouncement. Most "examples" of papal "errors" emerge when critics ignore the necessity of these three points. (Madrid, pp. 135-136, Pope Fiction)"
So, a Pope can speek of doctrine without infallibility. As for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, I believe 100% in it, and I believe that it has been passed down from the teachins of the apostles and early fathers,
"St. Irenaeus, whose famous 3d century work "Against Heresy" marks him as a defender of the faith, wrote:
'Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert . . . 'The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary unloosed by her faith.'"
As for the question posed to Fr. Mitch (whom I watch and listen to regularly on EWTN--he is an amazing scripture scholar who I greatly admire...sidenote...he speaks 12 languages...wow). I don't understand your point. If James White was trying to prove sola scriptura by saying the Church uses scripture to define dogma...well, the Church does use scripture to define dogma. I think the point isn't so much sola scriptura as it is this, who has the authority to define the meaning of scripture. It is through the Traditions of the Church that we define the meanings. Is it circular, yeah, it is supposed to be. They flow in and from each other, scripture and tradition.
Also, real quick I want to clarify this whole argument about how the Church says you can't go to heaven unless you are in the church and follow all its rules...The Catechism of the Catholic Church states (818-819)818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
There is an entire section of the catechism that explains these teachings. It isn't the Catholic Church that makes it a "our way only" argument. Like I said, the really understand, you have to read without a filtered lense.
“Okay, first of all, I want to say that I still think you, while you are reading and searching, are not understanding. I think you are reading for truth, but are clouded by what you have already decided is true. And that's okay! My goal is not to convert people from their place to the RC, but to make sure people who have questions can have an answer.”
April what I decide is true is based from the teachings of the Apostles which are preserved for us in their letters. How can you make such a fallacious argument when in your same breath you do the very thing that you accuse me of. Do you not interpret scripture thru the standards of Rome? Not trying to be ugly just an honest question.
“The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition."
April they had the letters of the Apostles, they also had the Septugant(Old Test.) Which paul used to argue for the gospel. It is a historic fact April that the early Christians had copies of the letters of the Apostles which they themselves could refer to. From the very beginning of the post apostolic age with the writings of what are known as the Apostolic Patriarchs there is an exclusive appeal to the Scriptures for the positive teaching of doctrine and for its defense against heresy.
Hippolytus of Rome
There is, brethren,one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practise piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God.
Origen
To the best of my understanding, I think in these two days the two Testaments can be understood. In these, every word that pertains to God—for this is a sacrifice—can be sought and discussed and even the whole knowledge of things can be received from these. But if something “has been left over,” that the divine Scripture does not discern,no other third Scripture ought to be received as an authority of knowledge, for that is called the third day, but let us give to fire “what is left over”; that is, let us preserve it for God.
Irenaeus in his response against the Heresies of the Greek Gnostic’s
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."....cont
Again
"When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world." And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Ch 2, 1-2).
April Irenaeus shows that the scriptures were the first line of attack against false teachers who were outright refuted by the written tradition of the apostles. The gnostics used some of the same arguments that I here many today use that you cannot understand the Bible UNLESS you have the tradition and that the truth was more fully revealed orally then in the scriptures. The tradition that originates from the apostles and is "preserved succession of presbyters in the Churches" is not some separate set of teaching distinct from scripture, but the living witness of what the scriptures teach in the local churches. Irenaeus pointed the Gnostics to the scriptures and they reject it. He then points to the visible doctrine of the church (which is identical to scripture) and they reject it.....cont
“The Church hold Scripture in the highest esteem as the Word of God! Just because we don't claim sola scriptura, doesn't mean we don't acknowledge the Bible as the inspired and infallible Word of God!!!”
Again your evading the real issue April. Again the problem is that Rome elavates it’s church tradition to that of scripture. If your gonna make the claim that the RCC holds Scripture in the HIGHEST ESTEEM but yet hold to the belief and teaching that the Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church is infallible. Your statement bocomes false. It is not enough to simply say that Sacred Tradition is equal to Scripture based upon the Catholic Magesterium. Like any spiritual teaching, I must compare it to the Bible. Jesus own words in Matt. 15:3 lend support for myself and many non-Catholics to subject the fruit of Sacred Tradition to the pruning of God's word. In other words, do the teachings of the Catholic church that are derived through tradition transgress the commands of God? Of course, the Catholic will say that they do not which you argue. When Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees in Matt. 15:1-6, He rebuked them for not understanding God's word. They were appealing to the tradition of the elders, those who had passed down oral and written tradition which they themselves were not keeping. Jesus, on the other hand, exposed their error by citing scripture. Please take note of what He said in Matt. 15:1-6.
"Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem, saying, 2"Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." 3And He answered and said to them, "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4"For God said, Honor your father and mother,' and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5"But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or mother, "Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God," 6he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."
Whatever might be said about this passage, at least one thing must be observed: The tradition of the religious leaders was subject to the Word of God it was not seen as both being the same or as one as Rome teaches. Are the religious leaders of the Catholic Church exempt from subjection to the Word of God? And likewise, is their Sacred Tradition also exempt? I think not....cont
Good grief. Torrie, when I said you didn't understand, I was talking about Catholic teaching, not scripture. And, no, I don't read "through the eyes of Rome." I read through my eyes, and I agree with Rome.
You are arguing something I'm not here, I think.
All of the churh fathers you quoted, I agree with, and so does the church. What I'm trying to say is that you don't understand the relationship between scripture and tradition.
You see, the Church doesn't place scripture beneath tradition. It is the canon!
You argue by stating that the apostles used the Septuagint in their teaching..that's right! And in that form was the canon established by the Church.
Let me ask you this...
do you know what the word canon means? Do you know where the canon came from? Do you know that the Catholic Church has preserved the canon that was decided, in its entirety to be the sacred Word of God, but that Protestants changed it to suit their purpose?
Who, in the Protestant faith, has the authority to interpret scripture with the assurance of holding true to the teachings of the apostles? Torrie???? The Presb. Church, Methodists, Baptist, Lutheran, Independent, etc?? And who do you believe? And if you accept their teachings, you are saying all others are wrong?
What the Church follows are traditions (teachings) handed down by the apostles. They didn't make them up! They didn't just say, hmmmm...this sounds good!
Read "The New Evangelization" by Pope John Paul II.
Read some of the current church works on scripture
"Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life. Consequently these words are perfectly applicable to Sacred Scripture: "For the word of God is living and active" (Heb. 4:12) and "it has power to build you up and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified" (Acts 20:32; see 1 Thess. 2:13)."
That is from 1994!!!! You want to know the checks and balances of the Church?? It is scripture.
Cont.........
“ As for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, I believe 100% in it, and I believe that it has been passed down from the teachins of the apostles and early fathers,
"St. Irenaeus, whose famous 3d century work "Against Heresy" marks him as a defender of the faith, wrote:
'Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert . . . 'The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary unloosed by her faith.'”
April that says absolutely nothing about Mary’s Immaculate conception. That is a very far stretch to try to come to that conclusion based off this text. The doctrine of “the immaculate conception” is plagued by stubborn facts. First, there is no such thing as “original sin.” Second, there is no evidence that Mary was conceived differently from any other Hebrew maiden.
Third, the concept of Mary’s immaculate conception was wholly unknown to the early church. Here’s a quotation from a small volume titled, A Handbook of the Catholic Faith (Garden City, NY: Image Books, 1956). The work was authored by N.G.M. Van Doornik, S. Jelsma, & A. Van De Lisdonk. The book has the Imprimatur (official endorsement) of the Roman Church. What is amazing is the fact that these authorities happily admit that there is no biblical authority for this curious dogma. Note the following:
“This point of doctrine [the immaculate conception] is not expressly dealt with anywhere in the Bible, nor was it preached by the Apostles, and for many centuries it was not mentioned at all by the Church. Gradually, however, as the idea of the future dogma began to develop among the faithful, theologians submitted the point to the closest examination, and finally, the view then generally prevailing was formally pronounced as a dogma of the Church by His Holiness Pope Pius IX in 1854” (p. 238).
Please note the devastating concessions:
(1) The doctrine of the “immaculate conception” is not taught “anywhere in the Bible.”
(2) The idea was unknown to the apostles.
(3) It was alien to the church for centuries.
(4) The notion gradually evolved with time.
(5) It is without divine sanction, having no higher “authority” than that of the “Roman Catholic Church” with its papacy and councils. April how can you accept this Dogma as being true when there is so much evidence aagainst this teaching. April Rome’s argument for it’s interpretation of what tradition is, is illogical! When the church a statement like this
“It is through the Traditions of the Church that we define the meanings. Is it circular, yeah, it is supposed to be. They flow in and from each other, scripture and tradition.”
April you just made a self refuting argument, again you cannot show how the scriptures VALIDATE all of the dogmas of the roman Catholic Church. When something is Circular in it’s reasoning it means it has no foundation to reason or to be true because such an argument is fallacious, it relies upon its own proposition for example in the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. If this is your reasoning April then the Mormons can say the same thing when they refer to their history and the teachings of Joseph smith and their prophets, or Atheist Naturalists/Materialist can say their belief is true because they argue the scientific method explains everything(which we know it can’t because it can’t even validate it’s own method or explain other concepts). April your argument and reasoning is very dangerous. It is impossible for you to even live out this type of reasoning in reality!
I need to make a correction to something I said I think I typed a little too fast. I said, "First, there is no such thing as “original sin.” I was trying to say that "there is no such teaching from the early church patriarchs about Mary not having original sin.
.......cont
'Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert . . . 'The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary unloosed by her faith.'”
This quote has EVERYTHING to do with Immaculate Conception. It explains it, for crying out loud!!
And, to address the book you found. First of all, the stamp of the church only states that nothing in the book goes against doctrine, not that the church agrees with all of the statements.
Defined: In the Catholic Church an imprimatur is an official declaration by a Church authority that a book or other printed work may be published.[1][2] Since, according to canon law, this permission must be preceded by a declaration (known as a nihil obstat) by a person charged with the duties of a censor that the work contains nothing damaging to faith or morals,[3] the bishop's authorization of publication is implicitly a public declaration that nothing offensive to Catholic teaching on faith and morals has been found in it. The imprimatur is not an endorsement by the bishop of the contents of a book, not even of the religious opinions expressed in it, being merely a declaration about what is not in the book
Cont...
So, having the stamp doesn't validate the argument. Also, I have a few books sitting in my room right now that are stamped AND endorsed by Bishops that directly refute that statement.
Here is a list of several Church Fathers who taught the sinless nature of Mary.
Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.
•The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
•Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
•Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
•Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
•Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
•In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
•Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
•it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
•she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
•she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
•when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
•The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
•To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
•Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.
Cont...
I don't know how to make you understand what I'm saying about scripture and tradition. The Church views them as inseperable. It's not one higher or lower, they "flow from the same divine wellspring." When Paul teaches against tradition, he is speaking of the traditions of man and traditions under the 600 and whatever letters of Jewish law. Not moral teachings or covenant law. Jesus himself established "traditions" in the last supper, in Baptism, in the Great Commission. The apostles themselves said that if everything Jesus taught was written down it would fill volumes of books! Paul said, "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you taught us, either by word of mouth or by letter." and "we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us." 2 Thess 2:15 and 3:6
"Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." I Cor 11:1-2
Peter speaks of the danger of trying to understand many of Paul's writings, and he warns against people who try to twist them to their own purpose. Jesus gave authority to the Church (Mt 16:13-20)When he said Peter was the rock on which he would build his church and he gave him the keys to the kingdom. So that "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." He stated this AGAIN in Matt 18:15-18!
Sola Scriptura goes against the Bible, against History, and, to me, against common sense. Without an authority to guide the understanding of scripture, we end up with chaos throughout all of these confused and segmented denominations.
On the subject of Mary
April to the average person who knows nothing about church history this argument might seem persuasive but the first problem is that, you quote many church fathers referring to her as "undefiled", "spotless", etc. without realizing either that virginity is being addressed rather than sinlessness or that a temporary sinlessness is in view. (Remember, a term like "undefiled" can sometimes refer to virginity rather than sinlessness.) For example, Ephraim the Syrian and Augustine who you quote are often cited referring to Mary as sinless in some sense, but those same fathers contradict themselves and refer to Mary as a sinner in other contexts. Some of these sources thought of Mary as sinless for part of her life (after her conception or around the time of her conceiving Jesus, for example), but viewed her as a sinner during another part of her life. I think it’d be wise to head the words of Augustine on this subject:
“For the reasonings of any men whatsoever, even though they be Catholics, and of high reputation, are not to be treated by us in the same way as the canonical Scriptures are treated. We are at liberty, without doing any violence to the respect which these men deserve, to condemn and reject anything in their writings, if perchance we shall find that they have entertained opinions differing from that which others or we ourselves have, by the divine help, discovered to be the truth. I deal thus with the writings of others, and I wish my intelligent readers to deal thus with mine.”
-Augustine of Hippo, Letter CXLVIII.15
If a doctrine is absent and contradicted early on, then continues to be contradicted by many people while some begin advocating it, why would anybody conclude that it's a doctrine always held by the universal church? If the RCC's claims about this doctrine were correct, why would such influential men as Thomas Aquinas and Pope Innocent III be contradicting it more than a thousand years after the time of the apostles? You aren't even attempting to reconcile these facts with the claims of the RCC. Instead, you're repeating a series of false and misleading claims made by the appealing to a process of doctrinal development that's more evasive than explanatory. Contradictions are not developments. When church fathers and Roman bishops for hundreds of years refer to Mary as a sinner, yet modern Roman Catholicism claims that Mary's sinlessness from conception is a Divinely revealed doctrine always held by the Christian church, that isn't a development akin to an acorn growing into an oak tree. Rather, it's a contradiction. It's like trying to derive an oak tree from an apple seed. April your trying to argue a Roman Catholic Dogma that has NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS whatsoever, also a great debate raged for centuries before the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed dogma in 1854. Catholic scholars admit that this doctrine is not explicitly revealed in Scripture. The Catechism refers to Luke 1:28 for evidence. But 'full of grace' could not possibly mean conceived without sin for the very same word is used in Ephesians 1:6 where it refers to all believers. Certainly no one would argue that all Christians were conceived without sin!The Roman Catholic magisterium would have us believe a doctrine that is neither taught in Scripture nor in the writings of the early Apostolic church fathers. But the Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (II Tim 3:15). We don't need any extra-biblical doctrines for our salvation. In fact, it is the Roman church that suffered 'shipwreck in the faith' by embracing a doctrine that is contrary to the Bible and 'separated from the unity of the Church' which for centuries knew nothing of the theological inventions of Rome. Please think deeply and logically about what you believe, and why you believe it.
....cont
(215 AD Tertullian) “God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God” (The Soul 41:3).
“For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, ‘Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?’ (Matt. xii. 48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion....And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, ‘Woman, what have I to do with thee?’ [John 2:4] instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much for the salvation of her soul.”
-John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel According to St. John, Homily 21
Clement of Alexandria “ The Word Jesus Christ alone was born without sin.”
Augustine Bishop of Hippo “Whatever flesh of sin Jesus took, He took of the flesh of the sin of his mother. Jesus did not partake of sin, but took of his mother, which came under the judgment of sin.”
Augustine again:
“It is said of John the Baptist, "And he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." And his father Zacharias is found to have been filled with the Holy Ghost, so as to say such things of him. And Mary, too, was filled with the Holy Ghost, so as to foretell such things of the Lord, whom she was bearing in her womb. And Simeon and Anna were filled with the Holy Spirit, so as to acknowledge the greatness of the little child Christ.” (St. Augustine of Hippo On the Trinity Book IV). Here Augustine gives others equality with Mary on being filled with the Holy Spirit.
“as the Son of God is that man who was made of a virgin? but only to the ministry of bringing about such intimations as God judged needful; or whether anything else is to be understood: is difficult to discover, and not expedient rashly to affirm.”
For neither do we know the countenance of the Virgin Mary; from whom, untouched by a husband, nor tainted in the birth itself, He was wonderfully born...”
“For we believe our Lord Jesus Christ to be born of a virgin who was called Mary. But what a virgin is, or what it is to be born, and what is a proper name, we do not believe, but certainly know. And whether that was the countenance of Mary which occurred to the mind in speaking of those things or recollecting them, we neither know at all, nor believe. It is allowable, then, in this case to say without violation of the faith, perhaps she had such or such a countenance, perhaps she had not: but no one could say without violation of the Christian faith, that perhaps Christ was born of a virgin” (Augustine of Hippo On the Trinity Book VIII)
“If the Scriptures be duly considered, and the saying of the doctors ancient and modern, who have been most devoted to the glorious Virgin, it is plain from their words that she was conceived in sin,” (Cardinal Cajetan, De Loc TheoI. parts c. 2.)
“For he (Christ) alone was truly born holy” (Gregory the Great Bened. Edit. page 598.(quoted from the Secrets of Romanism)
.....cont
Pope Leo 1 (440 a.d.) “The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born immaculate”(sermon 24 in Nativ. Dom.).
“And therefore in the general ruin of the entire human race there was but one remedy in the secret of the Divine plan which could succour the fallen, and that was that one of the sons of Adam should be born free and innocent of original transgression, to prevail for the rest both by His example and His merits. Still further, because this was not permitted by natural generation, and because there could be no offspring from our faulty stock without seed, of which the Scripture saith, '’Who can make a clean thing conceived of an unclean seed? is it not Thou who art alone?’” (Sermon 28:3) The unclean seed includes Mary. The one being from Adam who is sinless is Jesus - Pope Gelasius (492 a.d.)
“ It belongs alone to the immaculate lamb to have no sin at all.” (Gellasii papae dicta, vol. 4, col 1241, Paris, 1671)
Pope innocent the third (1216 a.d.) “She (Eve) was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin, she (Mary) was produced in sin, but she brought forth without sin.” ( De festo Assump., sermon 2)
The Roman Catholic scholar Michael O'Carroll cites the Pope saying that Mary was "begotten in guilt", that she needed "cleansing of the flesh from the root of sin" (Theotokos [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, Inc., 1988], p. 185).
Justin Martyr refers to Jesus as the only sinless human and denies that his Jewish opponent Trypho can cite any human who completely obeyed God so as to not need the salvation Christ offers (Dialogue With Trypho, 17, 88, 95). Clement of Alexandria is emphatic on the point that Jesus is the only sinless human (The Instructor, 1:2, 3:12). Tertullian accuses Mary of such sins as "keeping aloof" from Christ and "want of adherence" to Christ, and he refers to Mary's "unbelief" (On the Flesh Of Christ, 7). Origen denied that Mary was sinless both indirectly (Against Celsus, 3:62, 4:40) and directly. J.N.D. Kelly comments:
"Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon's prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified."
(Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)
“For in the connected series of statements which appears to apply as to one particular individual, the curse pronounced upon Adam is regarded as common to all (the members of the race), and what was spoken with reference to the woman is spoken of every woman without exception.”
-Origen, Against Celsus 4.40
Athanasius maintained that it was Jesus, not Mary, who introduced consistent righteousness into the world (Four Discourses Against The Arians, 1:51).
Basil of Caesarea explains that the meaning of Luke 2:34-35 is clear: Mary sinned, and she needed to be restored after Jesus' resurrection, just as Peter was restored (Letter 260:6-9).
John Chrysostom accuses Mary of lack of virtue and "superfluous vanity", for example, and comments that she didn't hold a high enough view of Christ (Homilies On Matthew, 44).
Ambrose maintained that Jesus was the only immaculately conceived human (cited in Augustine, On The Grace Of Christ, And On Original Sin, 2:47).
....cont
April what disturbs me about many of your arguments especially this one. You still fail to see and realize that this belief and many others were not grounded in scripture, differed in opinion by many Church Patriarchs and it is an historical fact that this belief developed thru out history! April I’m not trying to be mean but please please please listen to reason and logic, your arguments are not based on either. You blindly accept this dogma and others when there is no clear teaching of it in scripture, there is no credible consensus in the writings of the church patriarchs you quote and those who are called the catholic church doctors who many of them have conflicting beliefs and some who even debated each other on this very issue, and yet you except this dogma, this is nothing more than blind faith April which is neither logical nor biblical!
Ok now back to what we were actually discussing
you said, “Sola Scriptura goes against the Bible, against History, and, to me, against common sense. Without an authority to guide the understanding of scripture, we end up with chaos throughout all of these confused and segmented denominations.”
John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.
Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.
Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.
For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.
Basil, Moralia, 72:1.
The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.
Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.
If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.
For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.
....cont
April in all of your comments about Sola Scriptura you insist that the oral tradition of the Church fathers is consistent with the Roman Catholic Churrch, again you are wrong and Rome is wrong when it teaches that the apostles left the church with an unwritten authoritative oral tradition. This tradition supposedly gives us the proper way of how Scripture is to be interpreted, and the Roman Church claims that it practices and interprets Scripture according to those traditions that were taught by apostles. However, as history shows, there are many reasons why one should reject that claim.
Papias vs. Eusebius
Papias, one of the earliest of the church fathers, made a few claims concerning so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions. However, Eusebius, a fourth century church historian, repudiates his ‘apostolic’ traditions as being ‘mythical’:
“But it is fitting to subjoin to the words of Papias which have been quoted, other passages from his works in which he relates some other wonderful events which he claims to have received from tradition. That Philip the apostle dwelt at Hierapolis with his daughters has been already stated. But it must be noted here that Papias, their contemporary, says that he heard a wonderful tale from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that in his time one rose from the dead. And he tells another wonderful story of Justus, surnamed Barsabbas: that he drank a deadly poison, and yet, by the grace of the Lord, suffered no harm. The Book of Acts records that the holy apostles after the ascension of the Saviour, put forward this Justus, together with Matthias, and prayed that one might be chosen in place of the traitor Judas, to fill up their number. The account is as follows: “And they put forward two, Joseph, called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias; and they prayed and said.” The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 3.39.8-13
....cont
Many of the church fathers did not accept Papias’ ‘apostolic’ traditions. Another thing that must be noted is that Papias’ ‘apostolic’ tradition about the coming of Christ is in opposition to Roman Catholic teaching. Papias said that premillennialism was an ‘apostolic’ tradition while the Roman Catholic Church holds to amillennialism. In the late 2nd century, Victor, the bishop of Rome, threatened to cut off communion with the Eastern churches because they celebrated Easter on a different day than that of the Western churches. The Eastern churches, represented by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, defied the bishop of Rome, and both sides claimed that apostolic tradition was on their side. Eusebius records this:
“For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour’s passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 5.23.1
The bishops of the East did not give in, and they wrote a letter to Victor:
“But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him:
“We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John,who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate.””
-Eusebius, Church History 5.24.1-2
This is a perfect example of ‘apostolic’ traditions originating from apostolic sees contradicting each other. If anything, this proves that oral traditions are unreliable at best.
The Age of Jesus According to Irenaeus
Irenaeus was one of the earliest church fathers, and he was a very popular anti-gnostic writer. In his famous work, Against Heresies, Irenaeus used what he believed to be an apostolic tradition for one of his arguments against Gnosticism:
“On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement…But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad,” they answered Him, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?” Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period. But to one who is only thirty years old it would unquestionably be said, “Thou art not yet forty years old.” For those who wished to convict Him of falsehood would certainly not extend the number of His years far beyond the age which they saw He had attained; but they mentioned a period near His real age, whether they had truly ascertained this out of the entry in the public register, or simply made a conjecture from what they observed that He was above forty years old, and that He certainly was not one of only thirty years of age…He did not then wont much of being fifty years old.”
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22.5-6
Irenaeus claims that Jesus lived to be nearly fifty years old before He was crucified, and he cited this as an apostolic tradition that originated from the Apostle John. However, we know that Jesus only lived to be thirty-three years old when he was crucified....cont
In the mid-third century, a controversy arose whether heretical baptism was valid. Cyprian, like his fellow African, Tertullian, said that it was not valid and claimed apostolic tradition for his practice. Stephen, the bishop of Rome, on the other hand, said that heretics should not be re-baptized and also claimed apostolic tradition for his beliefs. Cyprian records Stephen’s claims:
“But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles…”
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
Cyprian goes on to say that Stephen’s apostolic tradition is false and that the rest of the churches of the world agree with his (i.e. Cyprian’s) ‘apostolic’ tradition:
“…any one may know also from the fact, that concerning the celebration of Easter, and concerning many other sacraments of divine matters, he may see that there are some diversities among them, and that all things are not observed among them alike, which are observed at Jerusalem, just as in very many other provinces also many things are varied because of the difference of the places and names. And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make; breaking the peace against you, which his predecessors have always kept with you in mutual love and honour, even herein defaming Peter and Paul the blessed apostles, as if the very men delivered this who in their epistles execrated heretics, and warned us to avoid them. Whence, it appears that this tradition is of men which maintains heretics, and asserts that they have baptism, which belongs to the Church alone.”
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
Cyprian records a letter from Firmilian, bishop of Cappadocia, which sides with him:
“But with respect to the refutation of custom which they seem to oppose to the truth, who is so foolish as to prefer custom to truth, or when he sees the light, not to forsake the darkness?-unless most ancient custom in any respect avail the Jews, upon the advent of Christ, that is, the Truth, in remaining in their old usage, and forsaking the new way of truth. And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen, that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans’ custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles. Nor do we remember that this at any time began among us, since it has always been observed here, that we knew none but one Church of God, and accounted no baptism holy except that of the holy Church.”
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.19
Eusebius records the letter of Dionysius of Alexandria to Sixtus I about Stephen:
“’He therefore had written previously concerning Helenus and Firmilianus, and all those in Cilicia and Cappadocia and Galatia and the neighboring nations, saying that he would not commune with them for this same cause; namely, that they re-baptized heretics. But consider the importance of the matter. For truly in the largest synods of the bishops, as I learn, decrees have been passed on this subject, that those coming over from heresies should be instructed, and then should be washed and cleansed from the filth of the old and impure leaven. And I wrote entreating him concerning all these things.’”
-Eusebius, Church History 7.7.4-5
....cont
Not only did these two so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions contradict each other (which brings doubt to the reliability of oral tradition), but the Roman Catholic Church holds to the same tradition today that Stephen held to in the third century. Nearly the entire early church in the days of Cyprian and Stephen opposed Stephen’s custom as being non-apostolic. Thus, the modern Roman Church is in violation of its vow never to interpret the Scriptures in opposition to the unanimous consent of the church fathers. April this is why the Church Patriarchs held the view that Scripture is to be the final authority because it alone verifies the oral tradition of the apostles which was the preaching of the Gospel and it was the final authority between disputes of church patriarchs who had no scriptural basis for their traditions that disagreed with each other. This is exactly what the doctrine of Sola Scriptura teaches and yet you falsely assert that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura goes against the bible, and history, April I can only if the early church fathers were alive to day that they would give you a sharp rebuke and would call your logic and reasoning into question.
“Orth.-Do not, I beg you, bring in human reason. I shall yield to scripture alone.
Eran.-You shall receive no argument unconfirmed by Holy Scripture, and if you bring me any solution of the question deduced from Holy Scripture I will receive it, and will in no wise gainsay it.” –Theoderet, church father, Dialogue I
“Have thou ever in thy mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.”
-Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 4.17
....cont
I don't need the church fathers here to rebuke me, Torrie. Apparently, I have you for that.
Thanks for you loving and gentle comments.
April the arguments that you have made against the doctrine of Sola Scripture is not supported by history. Again my aim here was not to step on anyone's shoes or get into a big messy fight, but to respond to statements and arguments that you have made that are misleading and not historically accurate.
In love, your brother in Christ
Torrie
I appreciate your contribution. However your comments come across as angry, hateful, resentful and pompous. Your approach is neither loving nor gentle, and it does not reflect the love of a "brother in Christ" and, frankly, while we are being accurate, Reformed Protestants do not believe that Catholics are Christians, so in your eyes, that is a false statement.
Again, we strongly disagree on the historical accuracy of the Church. That won't change no matter how much "fact" we throw at each other, so let's just leave it at that.
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